7th seat for Cherokee 6-260?

18 Replies

7th seat for Cherokee 6-260?

Posted by John Choberka on Feb 1, 2019 8:34 am

I'm looking to purchase a Cherokee 6-260, but most don't come with the 7th seat (additional seat in middle row) which is a "must have" for my aircraft needs (5 smaller kids, and yes I've done the W&B calculations).  I've inquired to Piper about adding the 7th seat, and they say it's authorized per the original parts manual (1966), and that any ANP can install and certify.  I'd appreciate any info from anyone out there that's gone through the install process and been successful, or open to suggestions from ANPs.  I've been able to find the seat for purchase from various venders, but not the floor hardware to mount the seat.  Thanks for any help or info.  
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Re: 7th seat for Cherokee 6-260?

Posted by Ronald Levy on Apr 9, 2019 10:17 am

Neil Cohen:

Ronald Levy:
Just remember that if you install the Service Kit to convert a 6-place PA32 to 7 seats, it can no longer be flown by a pilot on Basic Med (exceeds the 6-seat limit).

I'm on BasicMed and am considering a Cherokee 6.  As I understand it, even if particular PA32 has only has 6 seats installed, before you can fly it under BasicMed it's log needs to show the STC that limits your aircraft to the 6 seat configuration.  Since the PA32's type certificate allows a 7th seat, a pilot with BasicMed is disqualified from flying a 6-seat PA32 without that STC'd limitation. 

That would only be required if it was shipped from the factory with the optional 7th seat kit installed and later removed.  If not, then there's no additional paperwork necessary.  If it at any time the 7th seat was installed, then you'd need the maintenance records to show the kit had been removed.  In any event, since it's a Service Kit authorized under the type certificate, there's no STC involved, just a 337 showing the installation or removal of the kit, as appropriate, since the type certificate provides the approved data either way.

 

Re: 7th seat for Cherokee 6-260?

Posted by Philip Johnson on Apr 13, 2019 9:59 am

Just remember you won't be able to fly it using BasicMed.

Re: 7th seat for Cherokee 6-260?

Posted by Ronald Levy on Apr 14, 2019 8:00 am

Philip Johnson:
Just remember you won't be able to fly it using BasicMed.

That's the point I made way up this thread.  If it has the 7th seat, you can uninstall the kit and fly it on Basic Med.  If it doesn't, you're OK, but can't install the kit unless/until you get a Third Class.

Re: 7th seat for Cherokee 6-260?

Posted by Neil Cohen on Apr 15, 2019 11:55 am

Ron Levy posted above that the STC to limit your PA-32 to 6 seats under BasicMed "would only be required if it was shipped from the factory with the optional 7th seat kit installed and later removed.  If not, then there's no additional paperwork necessary.".

However, as I read this AOPA article https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2018/june/12/stc-makes-more-piper-pa32s-basicmed-complian  "Even if your airplane only has six seats and has never had the seventh installed, the capability for six or seven under the type certificate data sheet (TCDS) excludes the airplane from being piloted under BasicMed.".  Maybe this June 2018 opinion is incorrect or has been changed, but it contradicts Ron's comment.  I would appreciate clarification, since a PA-32 maybe in my future.

Re: 7th seat for Cherokee 6-260?

Posted by Ronald Levy on Apr 16, 2019 9:15 am

The plain language of 61.113(i)(1) seems clear:

(1) The aircraft is authorized to carry not more than 6 occupants, has a maximum takeoff weight of not more than 6,000 pounds, and is operated with no more than five passengers on board;

Without the optional seventh seat kit installed, the PA32 is not authorized to carry more than 6 occupants, so I don't see an issue.  If an FAA Inspector saw seven people climb out of a PA32 with only six seats, the pilot would be facing a violation.  By AOPA's interpretation, my 4-seat Grumman Tiger is authorized to carry up to seven people (four adults plus three lap children, which is "authorized under Federal law" -- but which is NOT the language of the relevant regulation).  However, AOPA has created and made this paperwork STC available free to members anyway, so as long as the 7th seat kit is not installed, there is no work to be performed on the aircraft and the only cost would be a few minutes of an IA's time to create the log entry and 337.  Frankly, I think someone created an issue that didn't exist, but now that AOPA has done this, there isn't much choice for a 6-seat PA32 owner/pilot -- they'll have to get the AOPA STC and file the 337.

Re: 7th seat for Cherokee 6-260?

Posted by Philip Johnson on Apr 22, 2019 12:15 pm

Ron from the AOPA article:  "To make those airplanes BasicMed compliant, earlier this year AOPA requested that the FAA issue a supplemental type certificate (STC) that would restrict Piper Aircraft Models PA–32R-300, PA–32RT-300, PA–32RT-300T, PA–32R-301, PA–32R-301T, PA–32-301, and PA–32-301T to six seats—the way most of them are actually equipped most of the time."

What about PA32-260?

 

Re: 7th seat for Cherokee 6-260?

Posted by Christopher Wieczorek on Apr 22, 2019 1:37 pm

I think Q33 from the FAA's Basic Med FAQ answers this one definitively:  https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certification/basic_med/media/basicmed_faq.pdf

Q33: Are PA-32 (Piper Cherokee Six series aircraft) “authorized to carry not more than 6 occupants”?A: The Piper PA-32-260 (Cherokee Six 260) and PA-32-300 (Cherokee Six 300) aircraft are authorized by their type certificate (as set forth in Type Certificate Data [TCDS] A3SO) to be equipped with 6 seats and also to be equipped with 7 seats only if they have been converted by the installation of Piper Kit No. 69072-3. If your PA-32-260 or PA-32-300 is equipped with 6 seats and has not been converted to a 7-seat configuration by installation of the Piper kit, you may fly the aircraft under BasicMed. If your aircraft has been converted to the 7-seat configuration using the Piper kit you may not fly the aircraft under BasicMed. To fly that aircraft under BasicMed you would have to remove the installed kit and document its removal in the aircraft’s maintenance records. An FAA Form 337 would not be required to document the installation or removal of the kit. You may also fly the aircraft under BasicMed if it is equipped with the 6- seat Optional Club Seat configuration. A total of 14 aircraft models are listed on TCDS A3SO and their eligibility to be operated under BasicMed depends upon the specific aircraft model.The Piper PA-32R-300 (Lance), Piper PA-32RT-300 (Lance II), PA-32RT-300T (Turbo Lance II), PA-32R-301 (Saratoga SP), PA-32R-301T (Turbo Saratoga SP), PA-32-301 (Saratoga), and PA-32-301T (Turbo Saratoga) are authorized to be equipped with 7 seats. Although the center seats may be removed and replaced by Optional Club Seats to carry 6 occupants and some aircraft are also authorized for an unmodified 6 seat configuration, all these aircraft are authorized to carry more than 6 occupants without further modification and therefore may not be operated under BasicMed. These aircraft may only be operated under BasicMed pursuant to the issuance and inclusion in their type design of a Supplemental Type Certificate (STC) that restricts the aircraft to 6 seats. The PA-32R-301 (Saratoga II HP), PA-32R-301FT (Piper 6X), and PA-32R-301XTC (Piper 6XT) are only authorized to be equipped with 6 seats and may be operated under BasicMed. The PA-32R-301T (Saratoga II TC) is authorized to be equipped with 5 or 6 seats and may be operated under BasicMed. The PA-32S-300 (Cherokee Six Seaplane), PA-301-32R-301 is authorized to be equipped with 7 seats and may only be operated under BasicMed pursuant to the issuance and inclusion in its type design of an STC that restricts the aircraft to 6 seats. If your aircraft has been altered to permit the installation of a 7th seat by an STC, the seat may be removed and the aircraft may be operated under Basic Med provided the removal is recorded in the aircraft’s maintenance records and also on FAA Form 337 (unless the removal instructions were provided as part of the STC).

Re: 7th seat for Cherokee 6-260?

Posted by Ronald Levy on Apr 23, 2019 9:35 pm

IOW, for the Cherokee 6-260 (PA32-260) the OP asked about, my original answer was correct -- no STC required, just documented removal of the 7th seat kit if installed, and no problem if not installed.