Single Engine Add-on

9 Replies

Single Engine Add-on

Posted by Ron Himmelreich on Feb 7, 2019 9:00 pm

I am retired Navy and went from there into a CE-525 then major airline.  I have MEL, INST, Comm and ATP.  I have around 10000 total hours.  My kids are interested in flying with my oldest son already flying and should have his PPL this month.  I am looking at an airplane that we can both fly.  I have my eye on a Cherokee 180.  I know I will need training and eventually a checkride. BUT does anyone have any past experience with WHAT EXACTLY DO I NEED TO DO TO BE QUALIFIED and signed off for a SEL?  I even talked to my local FSDO and no one seemed to know for sure.  The expert was not in that day and has not returned my call.  

I know I am a unicorn and a rather unique case.  Thanks in advance.
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Re: Single Engine Add-on

Posted by John Choberka on Feb 8, 2019 7:59 am

I would think all you need is a sign-off in the platform you want to fly.  You have ratings exceeding the SEL, so you should be able to get signed off by a local instructor.  Your insurance may want you to get a minimum of 15 hours dual time, but it should be easy to get.  

Re: Single Engine Add-on

Posted by Ronald Levy on Feb 8, 2019 1:55 pm

John Choberka:
I would think all you need is a sign-off in the platform you want to fly.  You have ratings exceeding the SEL, so you should be able to get signed off by a local instructor.

If Ron's pilot certificate doesn't have "Airplane Single Engine Land" on it, it's going to take enough training with a CFI-ASE to convince that CFI to endorse him, and then a practical test with an examiner to add that ASEL rating.  See 14 CFR 61.63(c) for details.

However, since Ron is retired Navy, if he flew either a T-34B/C Mentor or T-6 Texan II during Navy pilot training, he is eligible to have that ASEL rating added with nothing more than paperwork under 14 CFR 61.73(b). Contact your local FSDO for details referencing that specific regulation.  If they're still confused, have them contact AFS-810 at FAA HQ for guidance.

Re: Single Engine Add-on

Posted by Ron Himmelreich on Feb 9, 2019 9:55 pm

Thanks for the references Ron.  That is exactly what I needed.  I did fly the T-34C in training so I should be able to take my log books and other documnets down to the Atlanta FSDO and get it all worked out.

I know I will still need some time with an instructor for both insurance purposes and to bring me back up to speed.  I will report back with my results.

Re: Single Engine Add-on

Posted by Ronald Levy on Feb 10, 2019 11:55 am

Actually, I should also have mentioned the T-28 flown at Whiting when I went through P-cola, but that would probably date me too much.  And since Ron flew T-34C's, I think those would have been only a memory when he went through.  The interesting thing is that a lot of USAF pilots who went through back when UPT had only T-37's and T-38's and then went multi-engine aircraft operationally never got any single engine time, and so would not qualify for an SE rating under this rule (nor a ME rating without CLT restriction if they went into F-4/15/111's).  Now, with the current USAF pipelines, everyone goes through the single engine T-6 Texan II and the twin engine trainers (either T-38 Talon or T-1 Jayhawk, aka Beechjet 400), and thus qualifies for both SEL and MEL (albeit with CLT limit from the T-38) ratings on UPT graduation.  OTOH, the fixed-wing Navy folks of my era all got both SE and ME time in the T-34B and then either the T-2 in the jet pipeline or the TS-2 in the prop pipleline -- only the helo folks didn't fly AMEL at all, but they'd qualify for both ASEL and Rotocraft-Helicopter.

Re: Single Engine Add-on

Posted by Richard Campbell on Feb 11, 2019 10:17 am

Hi Ron, old Marine A-6er here.  Good luck with your paperwork.  Just wanted to chime in about the Cherokee 180, there is an AD out requiring wing root inspection which could be very expensive so heads up.  My aero club dodged a bullet but others have had to pat thousands for the fix.

Re: Single Engine Add-on

Posted by William Sabo on Feb 11, 2019 8:34 pm

Had the same situation..I was USAF then airline. Got my FAA cert just as I was leaving AF.
FAA wouldn't recognize my USAF T-41(C172) checkout for SEL rating purposes because my SEL time was more than 24 months prior.
FAA only would issue me an MEL rating on my cert.
Had to take Comm SEL CFI training in a 172 and then an FAA/DPE check ride to get the SEL rating.
Kind of a pain but dems da rules. LOL
B.

Re: Single Engine Add-on

Posted by Brennan Callan on Feb 11, 2019 9:14 pm

Hey Bill, et al.,
perhaps it is time for us to get Congress to force the FAA to recognize the military hours/training/experience.  Our national pilot shortage means that our military is being solicited to join the airlines, but if everyone has to waste countless hours on this paperwork, it seems to be at the root of our shortage.

Perhaps we can get the AOPA and other aviation organizations to have Congress address these issues.

Here in Kentucky, we have both Mitch McConnell and Rand Paul.  I believe that it can be essentially presented to them that we need to force the FAA to accept the military hours/training/experience and stop wasting everyone's time/money/effort.  We don't have time to lose these military pilots and their life experiences.  Our commercial industry must be working towards helping them.

I do not have the numerous details of what is wrong our the exact laws/FARs that need updating, but it clearly must be accomplished.  For the AOPA REPRESENTATIVES, please get involved on this topic as it impacts thousands of military pilots from all branches of the service.

Best wishes,
Brennan

Re: Single Engine Add-on

Posted by Ronald Levy on Feb 12, 2019 10:30 am

William Sabo:
Had the same situation..I was USAF then airline. Got my FAA cert just as I was leaving AF.
FAA wouldn't recognize my USAF T-41(C172) checkout for SEL rating purposes because my SEL time was more than 24 months prior.
FAA only would issue me an MEL rating on my cert.
Had to take Comm SEL CFI training in a 172 and then an FAA/DPE check ride to get the SEL rating.
Kind of a pain but dems da rules. LOL
B.

Those were the rules, but no longer.  The rules now are "any time, ever", not the last 12 months.  Someone who hadn't flown since the Ploesti raid could today take the military-civilian written, the walk into the FSDO and walk out with a CP-AMEL-IA with CV-LB30 type rating and ASEL based on having flown Stearmans and T-6's in pilot training in 1942.

Re: Single Engine Add-on

Posted by Ronald Levy on Feb 12, 2019 10:32 am

Brennan Callan:
Hey Bill, et al.,
perhaps it is time for us to get Congress to force the FAA to recognize the military hours/training/experience. 

Brennan is apparently unfamiliar with the Part 61 change on this issue introduced many years ago.  As I said above, the 12-month limit is long since eliminated.  They also added getting a CFI ticket if you were an IP.  Again, this is all spelled out in 61.73(b)/(g) for pilot/flight instructor certificates.